Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:03:48 +0100
Interview with an Islamic State Recruiter: 'Democracy Is For Infidels'
Interview Conducted by <http://www.spiegel.de/impressum/autor-2702.html>
Hasnain Kazim
How does Islamic State think? How do its followers see the world? SPIEGEL
ONLINE met up with an Islamic State recruiter in Turkey to hear about the
extremist group's vision for the future.
* October 29, 2014 – 10:12 AM
The conditions laid out by the Islamist are strict: no photos and no audio
recording. He also keeps his real name secret as well as his country of
origin, and is only willing to disclose that he is Arab. His English is
polished and he speaks with a British accent.
He calls himself Abu Sattar, appears to be around 30 years old and wears a
thick, black beard that reaches down to his chest. His top lip is shaved as
is his head and he wears a black robe that stretches all the way to the
floor. He keeps a copy of the Koran, carefully wrapped in black cloth, in
his black leather bag.
Abu Sattar recruits fighters for the terrorist militia Islamic State in
Turkey. Radical Islamists travel to Turkey from all over the world to join
the "holy war" in Iraq or Syria and Abu Sattar examines their motives and
the depth of their religious beliefs. Several Islamic State members
independently recommended Abu Sattar as a potential interview partner -- as
someone who could explain what Islamic State stands for. Many see him as
something like an ideological mentor.
He only agreed to an interview following a period of hesitation. But after
agreeing to a time and saying he would name a place in due time, he let the
appointment fall through. The next day, though, he arranged another meeting
time, to take place in a public venue. And this time, he appears: a man with
brown eyes behind frameless glasses. He seems self-confident and combative.
He orders a tea and, throughout the duration of our meeting, slides his
wooden prayer beads through his hands.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: As-salamu alaykum.
Abu Sattar: Are you Muslim?
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why does that matter? Religion is a private matter for me.
Abu Sattar: Then why did you say "as-salamu alaykum"?
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Because it means "peace be with you" and I see it as a
friendly greeting.
Abu Sattar: So you're not a Muslim. I knew it!
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why is Islamic State so eager to divide the world into
believers and infidels? Why does Islamic State see everything as either
black or white, "us against the world"?
Abu Sattar: Who started it? Who conquered the world and sought to
subordinate all foreign cultures and religions? The history of colonialism
is long and bloody. And it continues today, in the shape of Western
arrogance vis-à-vis everyone else. "Us against the rest of the world" is the
formula that drives the West. We Muslims are now finally offering successful
resistance.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You are
<http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-professional-pr-strategies-of
-isis-in-syria-and-iraq-a-995611.html> spreading fear and horror and are
killing innocents, most of them Muslim. You call that successful resistance?
Abu Sattar: We are following Allah's word. We believe that humanity's only
duty is to honor Allah and his prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. We are
implementing what is written in the Koran. If we manage to do so, then of
course it will be a success.
For Salafists like Abu Sattar, the Koran is the only valid law. They are
literalists and refuse to interpret scripture, much less to abstract from
it. Abu Sattar and the Islamic State idealize the Muslim community that
existed during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, believing that it was
the epitome of Islamic practice and that the religion was only able to
rapidly expand for that reason. Islamic State would like to revive that
interpretation and emulate the early Muslims.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Do you believe that those who behead others are good
Muslims?
Abu Sattar: Let me ask you this: Do you believe that those who launch air
strikes on Afghan weddings or who march into a country like Iraq on specious
grounds are good Christians? Are those responsible for Guantanamo or Abu
Ghraib good Christians?
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You are dodging the question. The events you speak of were
not undertaken in the name of a religion and were heavily criticized in the
West. Once again: What is a good Muslim for you? What kinds of people are
you recruiting?
Abu Sattar: A Muslim is a person who follows Allah's laws without question.
Sharia is our law. No interpretation is needed, nor are laws made by men.
Allah is the only lawmaker. We have determined that there are plenty of
people, in Germany too, who perceive the emptiness of the modern world and
who yearn for values of the kind embodied by Islam. Those who are opposed to
Sharia are not Muslims. We talk to the people who come to us and evaluate on
the basis of dialogue how deep their faith is.
Turkey is seen as a key site for Islamic State recruiting. People from
around the world -- from Europe, the United States and Central and South
Asia -- travel to Istanbul and establish contacts with the extremists.
According to Turkish officials, around 1,000 of the country's citizens are
also fighting for Islamic State.
The government in Ankara denies that it is supporting Islamic State, but has
in the past
<http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/kobani-battle-rages-as-turkey-doe
s-little-to-help-kurds-a-998001.html> allowed jihadists to travel to Iraq
and Syria via Turkey. There are also indications that the extremists receive
food, medical supplies, weapons and munitions via Turkey and that injured
terrorists have been treated in Turkish hospitals.
In the last three years, Turkey has been actively seeking the fall of Syrian
autocrat Bashar Assad and has been supporting all groups fighting against
him, including Islamist groups. At the very least, it tolerated Islamic
State recruitment activities within Turkey.
Abu Sattar periodically glances around to see if he is being watched. He
says he is able to continue recruiting, but that "a bit of restraint" is
necessary.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: There are an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims in the world
today. Many are very democratic, some are liberal while others are
conservative and, just imagine, there are heterosexual Muslims and
homosexual Muslims among them. Most of them do not share your ideology. But
you act as though there were only one kind of Muslim, namely those who think
like you do. That is absurd!
Abu Sattar: Democracy is for infidels. A real Muslim is not a democrat
because he doesn't care about the opinions of majorities and minorities
don't interest him. He is only interested in what Islam says. Furthermore,
democracy is a hegemonic tool of the West and contrary to Islam. Why do you
act as though the entire world needs democracy? And when it comes to
homosexuality, the issue is clearly dealt with by the Koran. It says it is
forbidden and should be punished.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Such statements help cast suspicion on all Muslims. In many
countries, they are under pressure to distance themselves from Islamic State
even though they have nothing at all to do with terror.
Abu Sattar: So? Are they speaking out against us? (Laughs) I think we enjoy
much more support than you would like to believe. Those who demand that
Muslims take sides are totally right. We go even a step further: All people
should disclose whether they submit to Allah or not. Those who are against
us are our enemies and must be fought. That includes people who call
themselves Muslims but who don't lead their lives as such -- people who
drink, who don't pray, who don't fast, who have constantly changing partners
and who are unable to recite the Koran.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: There are many Muslims who have consciously chosen such a
lifestyle.
Abu Sattar: That may be true, but that is not Allah's will. When we someday
have power, inshallah, in the entire world, then Sharia will be imposed.
Such people will then have to atone for their behavior.
Religious fundamentalism is as old as religion itself. Islamic State,
however, is applying it with the most brutal of consequences. A
self-contained worldview that clearly delineates between good and bad,
friend and foe, makes it simple for its followers to find their way in a
complicated world. Muslims who interpret Islam differently than the
Salafists are simply declared to be unbelievers, a practice of
excommunication known as "takfir." For those declared unbelievers, it is
akin to a death sentence because turning away from Islam is forbidden. The
extremists have also shown no compunctions about using religion to justify
war crimes. In Abu Sattar's view, all means are legitimate in the fight for
"true faith." It is an approach that thousands of people clearly find
attractive.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You kidnap non-Muslim women and
<http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/yazidi-islamic-state-kidnapping-v
ictim-decribes-nine-days-of-horror-a-996909.html> turn them into sex slaves.
You crucify or behead those of other faiths, including children. How does
that conform to Islam?
Abu Sattar: Why didn't anybody get upset about the many people that Syrian
President Bashar Assad has on his conscience? But now that we want to
establish a caliphate, it is suddenly a problem? To answer your question: It
is every Muslim's duty to fight those of a different belief until only Allah
is worshipped around the world. Everybody has the opportunity to accept
Allah and to change to the right path. (Recited in Arabic from the Koran, 5.
Sura, Verse 33) "The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His
Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or
crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or
be exiled from the land."
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Most non-Muslims aren't waging war against anybody. Billions
of people, no matter what their religion, are living peacefully with each
other, or at least next to one another.
Abu Sattar: (Once again recites in Arabic, this time Sura 4, Verse 89) "They
(the Unbelievers) wish that you reject Faith as they have rejected Faith,
and thus that you all become equal. So take not protectors or friends from
them till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back from
Islam, take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them and take
neither protectors nor friends nor helpers from them."
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You are avoiding the question by confronting a complex
reality with religious texts. But if you really want to conduct such an
argument: It also says in the Koran that there is no compulsion in religion.
In a different spot it says that one is not permitted to "transgress due
balance" because God does not love imbalance. What you are doing is a
transgression of balance.
Abu Sattar: Yes, that is in the second Sura. But it also says that one
should kill or expel unbelievers wherever one finds them.
This is a typical strategy employed by fundamentalists: They choose those
sources that support their position while ignoring those that contradict
them.
Abu Sattar says that he has been responsible for "several dozen" young men
joining Islamic State. He says they were strictly separated according to
their countries of origins and would remain separated during their training
in camps in Syrian territory. Contrary to some reports, he emphasizes that
no training takes place on Turkish soil. Men with battlefield experience,
such as those who fought in places like Chechnya or Afghanistan, are
particularly highly valued.
Islamic State concentrates exclusively on the fight and the implementation
of their version of Islam. The militias even reject mosques because they
distract from faith. Monuments and works of art are likewise destroyed
because they see them as idols.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: In the golden age of Islam, there was music, dancing,
painting, calligraphy and architecture. Yet you are propagating an Islam
free of culture and art. It is time to discuss religious content and find a
modern interpretation, don't you think.
Abu Sattar: It is not up to us to interpret God's word. There have been
repeated errors and lapses in Muslim societies. That which you refer to as
the "golden age" was one of them.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Then you should at least be in favor of allowing people to
read the Koran in their own language so that they understand how they are
supposed to live. Most are unable to speak or understand Arabic. Do you
believe that the many calls for fighting and killing would be well received
were people to be able to read them in their own language?
Abu Sattar: It is Allah's word just as it is in the Koran. We are also not
allowed to translate it. It is unimportant whether what it says is well
received or not. We are not allowed to question even a single word.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You keep the people uneducated to build up your power. That
is a strategy used by all extremists.
Abu Sattar: You have your viewpoint and we have ours.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: But you fight against all those who don't share your
worldview.
Abu Sattar: Christians and Jews go after those who have access to raw
materials but who prevent access to them. Oil is the best example. The US
and its allies are constantly intervening in countries where they don't
belong only to defend their prosperity. Is that any better? We aren't
fighting because we are greedy and selfish, rather we are fighting for
values and morals.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: When one looks at your actions in Iraq and Syria, morals and
values are difficult to discern. One gets the impression that your actions
are driven by an inferiority complex. The same holds true of your recruits:
They tend to be people who feel like they don't belong and finally see an
opportunity to live out their fantasies of power.
Abu Sattar: It is not true that only those people come to us who have
experienced no success in life. Among them are many people who have
university degrees, people who were well-established. But they all see the
inequities that we Muslims have long experienced and want to fight against
them.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You constantly speak of fighting. Do Muslims not constantly
speak of Islam being a religion of peace?
Abu Sattar: It is when people submit to Allah. Allah is merciful and
forgives those who follow him.
<http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/bild-999557-754208.html> An
image grab from an Islamic State propaganda video.Zoom
AFP/ al-Furqan Media
An image grab from an Islamic State propaganda video.
(image/jpeg attachment: image005.jpg)
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