From: Berhane Habtemariam (Berhane.Habtemariam@gmx.de)
Date: Fri May 21 2010 - 07:54:49 EDT
Interview With Lee Kuan Yew About The New Global Order (PART I)
Friday, 21 May 2010 06:52 | Written by Shabait Admin |
http://www.shabait.com/images/stories/--------------------------------------
------------00lee-kuan-yew.jpgAs Singapore's founding father, he served as
prime minister for more than 30 years until 1990. He now serves as minister
mentor to the current prime minister, his son. At age 86 he is regarded as
an elder statesman on the global stage whose views are widely sought. He
also received a lifetime achievement away from the U.S.-Asian Business
Council. Following is of the interview he conducted with Bloomberg TV:
CHARLIE ROSE: Where are we, do you think, in terms of a world order? We
have gone through in '89 and '90 the collapse of the Soviet Union, the
collapse of the Berlin Wall. Then we had the United States engaged in the
Middle East in a long war that continues. Then we had the global economic
crisis. So many people say what is going to come out of this?
LEE KUAN YEW: I see Iraq and Afghanistan as distractions. That is not
going to change the world. Whatever happens in Iran or Afghanistan, the
major changes that are taking place is the recovery of China, and to a
lesser extent of India, places occupied three centuries ago before western
colonization blanketed them.
Three centuries ago, they were, between the two of them, 60 percent of the
world GDP, just the population and the production they put out. China's
again on the growth path. She's now a member of WTO. She knows every year
she's growing faster than anybody else and can do that for another 20, 30
years because there are such an enormous numbers of workers back in the west
and the hinterlands. Eight percent, 9 percent, 10 percent, no trouble at
all. But after that, they reach a ceiling where their labor is concerned,
and they have to increase productivity.
But by then in 30 years they'll have an economy not per capita but in total
terms bigger than the USA, which means they got resources to build up,
political, strategic, and other influences. And in fact, in anticipation of
that, people already treat her differently, because they know that this is
going on a big fellow around the block.
This is a watershed. I mean the world order that we knew was dominated by
the Caucasian peoples, Europe. Technology, sailing ships, and aircraft
conquered the world, industrialization.
CHARLIE ROSE: Globalization.
LEE KUAN YEW: Well, industrialization first, and then globalization. And
America is the extension of Europe with a difference, and that is she's more
embracing of other races. The 20th century was the American century. The
first half of the 21st century, a large part of it will still be the
American. But I believe the second half you'll have to share top places
with China and also with India, make space for them, too.
CHARLIE ROSE: You have said in a speech I read just today that the
relationship between the United States and China, based on what you just
said, has become the most important global geopolitical issue of the
century.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course.
CHARLIE ROSE: How do they both handle it?
LEE KUAN YEW: From the Chinese side, in a very pragmatic, almost cold
blooded and clinical fashion. On the American side, there's been some
vacillation. First China is a strategic adversary, then China is a
strategic partner, then China is a stakeholder, and then China is not
carrying its weight.
CHARLIE ROSE: China wants to be, as in the famous words of Bob Zoellick, the
president of the World Bank, wants to be a stake holder.
LEE KUAN YEW: Bob Zoellick coined that phrase.
CHARLIE ROSE: In Singapore, I think.
LEE KUAN YEW: I mean, wherever he was, and the Chinese were
wondering what that meant.
CHARLIE ROSE: They didn't know what stakeholder meant. They now know.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, they looked up the dictionary and didn't get much out of
it. They discussed it with friends, and I'm one of their friends. So I said
to them, well it means that though you're not a shareholder in the company,
you have an interest in the company because you sell to the company, and if
the company goes bust, you got no customer. And if you got no customer,
your trade will go down and you have unemployment. So you have an interest
in keeping that company going. And they have an interest in keeping you
going because you are a good customer. You're good producer for them --
cheap goods, cheap products, and good quality.
CHARLIE ROSE: There's great hope they will become more of a consuming
economy and we'll become more of a saving economy. You point that out.
LEE KUAN YEW: The Chinese have had 4,000 years or 5,000 years of all kinds
of catastrophes -- earthquakes, floods, famine, invasions, while the central
government failed entirely, and nobody can help you. You got to help
yourself. Let me tell you this anecdote. I was having my game left
shoulder from golf being massaged by a very superior Chinese master who
attended the region, and they sent him down to try to fix my game shoulder
and he fixed it in three weeks. So we had a chat, because I'm 25 minutes on
the couch, what can I do? So there was a flood up the Yangtze River. So I
said you've opened up, you get lots relief supplies. And he looked at me
puzzled. He said you don't understand. The relief supplies will arrive in
Shanghai. The floods will prevent it from reaching the villages.
And each village knows that's going to happen from time to time, and up on
the little hill they keep the rice, the salt, and all the essentials safe so
that they will survive such a calamity. And that habit, just like the
Japanese have the kit underneath their beds for earthquakes, that is their
habit for surviving. So they keep the money under their pillow because the
banks are not trustworthy, or gold...
CHARLIE ROSE: And the habit will not change, that habit of saving?
LEE KUAN YEW: It will take a long time. It will take one or two generations
of affluence. It may happen in the cities, but it's not going to happen in
the countryside
CHARLIE ROSE: You say this about America, as well. You talk about the
Chinese as having -- they have patience and they have persistence and they
have discipline and they have organization. But you say America has
something special that will be part of the inevitable competition. It is
its resilience and, more importantly, its creativity.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course. It's not just American talent that gets you
here. You're just 300 million people and they have 1,300 million and very
many more able people. But you are attracting all the adventurous minds
from all over the world and embracing them, and they become part of your
team. Now I don't see two million Indians and half a million other peoples,
Japanese, Koreans, and others, becoming part of China. I mean, first the
language is so difficult. Secondly, the culture is not embracive. How do
you fit in?
CHARLIE ROSE: What should the United States do as it looks at the inevitable
growth of China as a dominant player. What would be a wise foreign policy?
Because you have two or three decades before it reaches the full strength.
LEE KUAN YEW: Even in three decades it won't reach its full strength. In
three decades its per capita is still about one-third of America.
CHARLIE ROSE: It's gross domestic product.
LEE KUAN YEW: For it to reach America's standard of living and standard of
technology will take more than 100 years.
CHARLIE ROSE: So what should the United States do while it has the position
it has now?
LEE KUAN YEW: I think make sure that they feel that they are accepted at
the top table.
CHARLIE ROSE: Make sure that China feels accepted at the top table?
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes. There are places waiting for you when you make it, but
you have to play by the rules of the game. And the key really is whether
the next generation -- this generation understands it. They know that they
have no chance competing against the west, America especially, in technology
and especially military technologies. There's absolutely no chance. Let me
build an aircraft carrier to protect shipping lines while they carry oil and
other materials. This is the first time where the Chinese are growing but
dependent on the world for resources.
CHARLIE ROSE: But they've gone around the world signing up contracts in
Iran and Africa and...
LEE KUAN YEW: Absolutely. But before that it's all within the Chinese
empire. They don't have to worry about the rest of the world. This time
they have to worry with the rest of the world because without the resources,
the oil, the nickel, whatever, their growth will stop.
CHARLIE ROSE: Will they be able to create the domestic demand that's
necessary as they find exports reduced?
LEE KUAN YEW: Slowly. But in the meantime they're keeping the economy by an
enormous expenditure on infrastructure in the west -- high-speed roads,
high-speed railways, airports, telephone lines, bringing water from the
south up to the north where it's arid and dry, huge, enormous, mammoth
projects. That keeps it going.
CHARLIE ROSE: Will India have an advantage, some argue, because it's a
democracy and China is not?
LEE KUAN YEW: Let me put it this way, if India were as well-organized as
China, it will go at a different speed, but it's going at the speed it is
because it is India. It's not one nation. It's many nations. It has 320
different languages and 32 official languages. So no prime minister in
Delhi can at any one time speak in a language and be understood throughout
the country. You can do that in Beijing.
CHARLIE ROSE: So, in the end, do you think the system will change in
Beijing?
LEE KUAN YEW: I think it will have to change as the people get more
organized. Today it's 40 percent urban or less than 40 percent urban, and
more than 60 percent rural. When you reach the tipping point and 60 and 70
percent are urban with mobile phones, PDAs, and you can download anything
you want, send any messages you want -- it's already had its effect. The
Szechuan earthquake -- in the old days nobody would know about except
seismologists who saw that an earthquake took place. Here immediately all
the Chinese knew the world knew, and they had to go public. And the prime
minister took a plane full of pressmen and went there and tried to comfort
them and assured them that there would be...
CHARLIE ROSE: So you are saying that communication and technology and the
flow of information will have an impact.
LEE KUAN YEW: And the urbanization. If you're in the countryside that's
different, you can be isolated. But when you're together in the urban
center and they're planning 10 urban centers at 40 million people each,
that's the plans on the greater scheme of things, 40 million people in four
mega-cities all with -- you know, you can call a meeting anytime you want.
You can have a riot any time you want. So it's a different world. Therefore
you have to pay attention to what people think. And today they're watching
the Internet very carefully, because they know what the average person in
the cities are thinking.
CHARLIE ROSE: What are they afraid of? What is there fear of?
LEE KUAN YEW: They're not afraid. They just don't want to lose control.
CHARLIE ROSE: So they're afraid of control.
LEE KUAN YEW: No. They're afraid that they will lose control in the
situation. In the old days, way back in Mao's days, everybody was dependent
on the state. The state is the only employer and everybody has what you
call a Huku. A Huku is a residence permit. And if you lose your job
because you're anti-government or whatever, you've had it. There's no other
employer. But today there are multiple employers, all...
CHARLIE ROSE: So people have options.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, absolutely. And that means the government has lost
control over the people. They can be entrepreneurs. They run their own
businesses, shops, whatever it is.
CHARLIE ROSE: But are they moving toward some form, not a western form,
some form of more participation in the political process?
LEE KUAN YEW: They are co-opting all the successful people into the
government system.
CHARLIE ROSE: That's a smart policy.
LEE KUAN YEW: Jiang Zemin calls it the three representatives. So whether
you're an artist or you're a businessman, whether you're an activist,
anybody who has got the extra drive to contribute to a greater China, come
and join us.
CHARLIE ROSE: Coming out of the global economic crisis, even though the
United States is the dominant country, it is forced to look to build and to
engage and build coalitions on a whole range of big issues, and there is
never now a guarantee of unanimous support. It's hard to put together, for
example, sanctions against Iran.
LEE KUAN YEW: Iran is a special case. Iran has oil and gas. The Chinese
desperately need oil and gas. Russia's playing a game with Iran. Russia
doesn't need oil and gas, but Russia wants to cut the U.S. down to size and
remind the U.S. you need me to run the world.
With the Chinese they are doing their calculations. I think in exchange
they must know if they buck the word -- once the Russians say, all right, we
agree, I would bet 50/50 the Chinese will also say...
CHARLIE ROSE: So if the Russians say we'll engage in sanctions, the
Chinese will follow.
LEE KUAN YEW: They would not want to be the odd-man out and be held
responsible.
CHARLIE ROSE: What if the United States finds another partner or another
supplier of energy for Iran?
LEE KUAN YEW: No, in place of Iran?
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.
LEE KUAN YEW: Where will you find...
CHARLIE ROSE: Well, in the Middle East. In Saudi Arabia and -- not
possible?
LEE KUAN YEW: No, not possible.
CHARLIE ROSE: But I had a Chinese diplomat say to me that they would welcome
that, that if in fact they did not have a necessity of needing Iranian oil,
they would go along with sanctions, because they don't think...
LEE KUAN YEW: They need Iranian oil, they need Arabian oil, they need
Nigerian oil, they need Angolan oil...
CHARLIE ROSE: They need all the oil they can find anywhere.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course.
CHARLIE ROSE: To fuel the economic growth at 8 percent.
LEE KUAN YEW: Absolutely.
CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me about Russia and how you see Russia today?
LEE KUAN YEW: Well, look, I'm doing a little bit of business in Russia.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.
LEE KUAN YEW: I'm also a member of the board of governors of Skolkovo
Business School, invited to join it by Medvedev, who is now the president.
So I speak as one who is a semi-Russian colleague. I would say they would do
enormously better if they could get their system right. Their system is not
functioning and not as functional as it should be because it has gone
haywire. They've lost control over the various provinces, and they're
trying to bring it back to the center, but it's difficult.
CHARLIE ROSE: What do you think of the relationship between Putin and
Medvedev?
LEE KUAN YEW: Everybody knows that Mr. Medvedev is a very good friend
of Putin and also knows Mr. Putin is a very powerful fellow. And Mr.
Medvedev is working through very powerful men called Silovikis, who are all
from the FSB.
CHARLIE ROSE: Which is the former KGB.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes. Now, Mr. Medvedev is a highly intelligent man. He's a
good friend of Putin, and he sees no reason why he would want to clash with
Putin.
CHARLIE ROSE: And Mr. Putin will return to be president another day?
LEE KUAN YEW: I would say the probabilities are high.
CHARLIE ROSE: but you also said in a speech I read that the capabilities of
Russia are limited.
LEE KUAN YEW: Well, they've got enormous nuclear arsenal, but what else?
Their army is a very different army now. The air force -- they're building
new fighters, but, I mean, their navy -- and their population is declining
-- AIDS, alcohol, drugs, and pessimism. I mean, every year more Russians
die than Russians are born because people are not optimistic. In America
people are optimistic and say I'll bring a child into the world. But when
your life is so harsh, and from time to time it gets better when the oil
price goes up, but that's momentary, you have a different view of the
future, so what's the point of this?
CHARLIE ROSE: What about Japan -- back to Asia?
LEE KUAN YEW: I think the Japanese need an overhaul.
CHARLIE ROSE: In terms of their political system?
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, and in terms of their acceptance of immigrants. Their
birth rate -- their fertility rate is just slightly higher than ours. We're
1.29 and they're 1.30. They are shrinking. But we are a small population so
we can make it up with numbers from young bright Indians and young bright
Chinese, young bright Malaysians, and all the people around the world, and
some middle easterners. We now have Ukrainians serving in the army.
CHARLIE ROSE: Ukrainians in Singapore?
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course, Russians too, east Europeans, and British who
married our local girls, and British women who married Singapore men. But
Japan does not want immigrants, so they're stuck. Today they have 3.2
working persons to support one adult. In 2055, they'll have 1.2 persons to
support one adult.
CHARLIE ROSE: And immigration has been America's strength?
LEE KUAN YEW: Absolutely. But mind you, immigration of the highly
intelligent and highly-hard working, very hard working people. If you get
immigration of the fruit pickers, you may not get very far.
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*****
Interview With Lee Kuan Yew About The New Global Order (Part II)
Friday, 14 May 2010 10:00 | Written by Shabait Admin |
http://www.shabait.com/images/stories/--------------------------------------
------------00lee-kuan-yew.jpgAs Singapore's founding father, he served as
prime minister for more than 30 years until 1990. He now serves as minister
mentor to the current prime minister, his son. At age 86 he is regarded as
an elder statesman on the global stage whose views are widely sought. He
also received a lifetime achievement away from the U.S.-Asian Business
Council. Following is of the interview he conducted with Bloomberg TV:
PART II
CHARLIE ROSE: I met a Chinese delegation recently who was here in the last
couple weeks, and I said to a very important member of the government, not
at the highest level, but very important, "What are you doing here?" He
said "We're trying to get highly educated Chinese..."
LEE KUAN YEW: To go back.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course.
CHARLIE ROSE: To go back. I said, "Well, what do you say to them?" He
says, "I say to them you'll have opportunity, and I say to them, the
homeland needs you."
LEE KUAN YEW: That doesn't sell.
CHARLIE ROSE: What sells?
LEE KUAN YEW: What would sell is you can leave anytime you want and allow
your children special education facilities, and all of you can keep your
American green card or passports?
CHARLIE ROSE: And that works.
LEE KUAN YEW: Well, I'm not sure whether it will work, but they will go
back and test the waters, some? But will they go back and stay? Maybe,
because the older generation are emotionally tied up. But will your children
stay? No. The upbringing has been here, and they go back to China and say,
wow, this is a very regimented society. Papa, I'm going back. So there's
no comparison. They are two, and there is chalk and cheese between the two
societies, especially for young children who can see how independent
American children are and grow up and become anything if you want, beatniks
if you like.
CHARLIE ROSE: To use an old expression.
LEE KUAN YEW: Or whatever in China, you come out like sausages.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes, exactly. So will the Chinese be able to say -- one of
the things that you point to in terms of this relationship between the
competition, you say China and the United States will have competition, but
they must avoid conflict.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes. No, I think both sides don't want conflict.
CHARLIE ROSE: They don't want conflict. China wants to spend time focusing
on its internal development, it's economic development.
LEE KUAN YEW: China wants time to grow. If there is going to be any
conflict, they'll postpone it for 50 years.
CHARLIE ROSE: But inevitably at some point, as China grows, it will want to
be the dominant nation in the world, because it will have...
LEE KUAN YEW: But it is not going back to Tsung China or Hun China where
they were the only dominant power in the world. This time they're going
back to a world where there are several dominant poles that as inventive and
more creative than them.
CHARLIE ROSE: So we're looking at a multi-polar world.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, absolutely.
CHARLIE ROSE: We'll never go back to sort of the kind of thing that we have
between the Soviet Union and the United States.
LEE KUAN YEW: No. There will be the U.S., there will be China, the Indians
are going to be themselves, they're not going to be everybody's lackey.
They may not be as big as China in GDP.
CHARLIE ROSE: And you also suggest they have to develop a manufacturing
capacity.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course. You're going to have -- Europe will be an
economic force. It will not be a strategic, political, or military force
because they can't get together on foreign policy.
CHARLIE ROSE: It's inevitable they can never get together?
LEE KUAN YEW: I'm not saying it's inevitable, but if you look at them, they
are still 27 different nations. I mean, they won't accept one language,
although they all use English as a second language. But you tell them in
Brussels you speak French or English or another language, which is what is
actually happening in committees, they absolutely refuse. How long will
that take to disappear? I don't know. It may never happen.
CHARLIE ROSE: Take Singapore.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: You have said that Singapore has to maintain its relevance.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: It has to be a place that people want to invest in.
LEE KUAN YEW: It has to be a place that is useful to the world. Otherwise
it wouldn't exist.
CHARLIE ROSE: And that's what you had created since the founding of the
modern city-state.
LEE KUAN YEW: We have made ourselves relevant to the world.
CHARLIE ROSE: And how will you maintain your relevancy?
LEE KUAN YEW: By keeping on changing. You cannot maintain your relevance
by just staying put. The world changes. There are shifts in the
geopolitics and the economics of the world. We have to watch it and ride
it. You surf with them. As the surf comes this way you ride the surf. We
are keeping our links with America, with Japan, with Europe. They brought
us to where we are.
CHARLIE ROSE: And you don't have to choose sides. No other nation will
have to choose sides.
LEE KUAN YEW: We absolutely refuse to choose sides. We will not choose
sides between America and China or between China and India.
CHARLIE ROSE: But I just read today an announcement by your sovereign
wealth fund in Singapore of over $1.3 billion in new investments, none
coming to the United States, going to China, to India, to Brazil, and I've
forgotten where else.
LEE KUAN YEW: That's just $1.3 billion out of $300 billion.
CHARLIE ROSE: But none to the United States, mostly going to all the...
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, but the United States at the moment is in somewhat of an
unstable state. Is the dollar going to decline? Yes, it is cheap, but
supposing you buy and the deficits grow and Ben Bernanke is unable, your
federal chairman is unable to draw enough liquidity out of the market and
you have hyperinflation. Wow. You go down and you lost money. So
everybody's hedging, and it's a very...
CHARLIE ROSE: They're hedging by looking at other places, too?
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, but where? You tell me.
CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me where. If not the United States, there's nowhere to
go now.
LEE KUAN YEW: We go to parts of Euro. We're not going to -- very little to
Japan, Australia and New Zealand. The RNP, the Chinese Yuan in highly
controlled. They can make you go up or make you go down and you're not sure
which way it's going to go.
Whereas in the U.S., you can look at the figures and can read the federal
reports every time they make a decision and you can make your guess.
CHARLIE ROSE: You also said China and the United States both have to
change their mindsets.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: What do you mean by that?
LEE KUAN YEW: For the Americans, you have got to cease to think in terms of
the Chinese as they are today. The Chinese as they are today are people who
have been suffering for a very long time, especially under Mao, and who feel
that the world is cruel to them. And therefore they're very edgy.
They are -- if you talk to Chinese leaders now, those over 60, they are with
Russian as their second language. In 20, 25 years time, they're going to
meet a generation who are now in the lower ranks who have been to America
and Britain and Europe and will be English-speaking and have different
models in their minds. And they will know that they're not going to be the
sole power in the world. Not ever again, because this is a globalized
world, and they know that they're dependent on the world for their growth.
The resources that...
CHARLIE ROSE: So they've got to be part of the world.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes. Before, I mean up to the time when the British and the
others colonized them in a partial way, everything grew within China.
Whenever they needed they captured with the military.
CHARLIE ROSE: Then they found global markets.
LEE KUAN YEW: George H. W. Bush invited them to South America. He was a
U.S. representative before they had ambassadors. And he had a liking for
them. They were good to them. So he said you sell to us. And they sold,
and it succeeded. And they said this is the way to get out of our poverty.
CHARLIE ROSE: That was your friend Deng Xiaoping that said that?
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes. Then they got into the world trade center as a member,
WTO. I just met Bob Rubin today, and he Henry Kissinger and I, told him
that Clinton turned down China for this WTO.
So we said to him it's a great mistake, because if you turn them down, all
they will do is they'll reverse engineer all your patents and you find
generic products, imitations on the market. If you bring them in, get them
to observe the rules.
CHARLIE ROSE: Well, that's a big if. You have to get them to observe the
rules.
LEE KUAN YEW: They are going to have to observe the rules, and they will.
CHARLIE ROSE: And they understand that?
LEE KUAN YEW: Because they're making patience of their own now.
CHARLIE ROSE: They want to open markets around the world and be a part of
the global economy.
LEE KUAN YEW: No, no. They're doing research almost in every sector now,
including life sciences.
CHARLIE ROSE: Here's -- which is something that Singapore got involved in
very much with stem cell. Why did you do that?
LEE KUAN YEW: We figured there were smart fellows around and so many of
them, whatever we do they will do in time and better. But there are some
areas where they will take a very long time to be able to do what we're
doing, and that's to change the system from opacity to transparency, from no
protection from copyright to protection of copyright and rule of law. There
are two rules of law in China, one for the ordinary citizen and the other
for 76 million members of the Communist Party. And the judges will do what
they know what the leaders require to keep the country stable. So would you
-- look, we got all the big Pharma companies in Singapore.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes, because you have protection and you have rule of law and
you have protection of patents.
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes. And we're doing joint research with them on the effect
of these new drugs on various racial types of the population.
CHARLIE ROSE: Can you make an argument that a country who leads in
technology and science, it will go a long way in terms of their place in the
world?
LEE KUAN YEW: Yes, of course. That's why I think the U.S. will still be a
very powerful and considerable inventor and creator of new products.
CHARLIE ROSE: When you look at the U.S. and its relationship and its
concern about oil and its politics in the Middle East, do you think it's a
distraction? You think that...
LEE KUAN YEW: No, I'm not saying the Middle East is a distraction. I think
trying to make a country out of Afghanistan is a distraction. There was no
country for the last 30, 40 years. There's just been fighting each other
since the last king was chased out.
CHARLIE ROSE: Right.
LEE KUAN YEW: How on earth are you going to put these little bits together?
It's not possible.
CHARLIE ROSE: So therefore you do what?
LEE KUAN YEW: I'm not an expert, but in my simple mind it strikes me that
you won in Iraq, you won in Afghanistan not because you fought the Taliban,
but because you got the Northern Alliance to fight them, and you provided
the Northern Alliance with intelligence and the capabilities to bomb them
and target them. And they captured the south.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes, but they have governance problems there, too.
LEE KUAN YEW: That's all right. But that's their problem. Why do you want
to make it your problem?
CHARLIE ROSE: So what do you do? Would you pull all the troops out and let
whatever happens to Afghanistan, happen to Afghanistan? It's not that
threatening to the United States, is that the argument?
LEE KUAN YEW: I don't know about that, because I think it cannot be more
difficult for the United States to have their troops stuck there. The
Russians are a brutal, ruthless lot of army people, and 120,000 of them were
there, but they had to leave.
CHARLIE ROSE: And we helped that because we supported the Mujahideen.
The Mujahideen had a lot of support from around the world who wanted to see
the Soviet Union take it.
LEE KUAN YEW: But whether or not the Soviets helped to get the Americans
out, I think the Americans and the NATO troops -- the NATO members are very
skeptical of the outcome.
CHARLIE ROSE: Even to the point of not wanting to send their troops to
certain kinds of combat areas.
LEE KUAN YEW: Quite right. Yes, of course, because then you get shot for
nothing.
CHARLIE ROSE: But those who argue if Afghanistan is abandoned -- first of
all, the world will say or people will say, look, you left Afghanistan once
before after the Soviets left, and now you're leaving again. The United
States has to stand for something and it has to show it's prepared to stay.
You don't buy that at all?
LEE KUAN YEW: No.
CHARLIE ROSE: You must have a wonderful conversation with your friend Henry
Kissinger then?
LEE KUAN YEW: No, no.
CHARLIE ROSE: Where do you and Henry Kissinger differ on the look or view of
the U.S. role in the world?
LEE KUAN YEW: I don't think we have any difference.
CHARLIE ROSE: Is that right? How would you define it then?
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